Trekking Hellas with Stefanos Sidiropoulos

In this episode Jason König and Maria Christodoulou interview Stefanos Sidiropoulos about his work running the Bafi Refuge on Mount Parnitha and the outdoor company Trekking Hellas, and about why it matters to get more young people into the mountains.

Stefanos talks about the 20th-century history of the Bafi refuge, and about his own experience of taking on the lease of the refuge in 2004, which involved living up on the mountain full time, initially with very few visitors, but then with a huge increase over recent years. He talks about the wildfires of 2007, and about his experience of working as a fireman.

We discuss Stefanos’ favourite routes on the more than 250 km of recorded trails on Mount Parnitha, and then his work on constructing the first ever mountain trail in Greece for people with disabilities.

In the second half we talk about Stefanos’ experience of running Trekking Hellas, and his vision for bringing more young people from all backgrounds into the mountains of Greece.

This episode was edited by Zofia Guertin.

To learn more about the Mountains of Greece project you can visit our website https://mountainsofgreece.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk/, or follow us on Bluesky @mountainsofgreece.bsky.social. 

For the broader Mountain Stories, Mountain Futures project please visit our website https://msmf.wp.st-andrews.ac.uk, or follow us on Bluesky @futuremountain.bsky.social.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the mountain to growth stories. We want to look for a wide range of stories for people working on different amount of landscape, mountain hard working group. How can we find new ways of working with internal hard working cultivation and the mountain landscape of group? How can we look for a sustainable approach to environmental and cultural preservation? I'm Jason Koenig from the University of Flanders.

SPEAKER_03 0:40

And I'm Maria Christadulu, a clinical herbalist exploring the wisdom and whimsy of ancient Greek herbal medicine as the Greek herbalist.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

It's a great pleasure to welcome Stefanos Tiduropoulos. Stefanos is manager of the Bafi and Flamburi refugees on Mount Parnifa, north of Athens. We'll hear some more about those in a moment. He's also, among many other things, CEO of Trekking Hellas, which is one of the largest, possibly the largest, actually, outdoor and trekking company in Greece. Celebrating the 40th anniversary this year, I think, founded in 1986. Trekking Hellas does a huge range of outdoor activities, hiking, climbing, rafting, kayaking, many, many other things, inspiring youth adventure camps in the mountains. So I think trekking Hellas and other outdoor companies too have a huge part to play in the future of the mountain landscapes of Greece, and we'll be hearing a bit more about that later on. So welcome, Stefanos. It's great to have a chance to talk to you today. My pleasure. Are you up in the refuge today or are you down in the city in the hospital?

SPEAKER_02 1:39

I just I just came down. I was there for more than 10 days. You know, the schools have started.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

I should say we're recording this online and it's early January 2026, so I'm I'm actually recording from Scotland. It's absolutely freezing and it's minus three degrees this morning and heavy snowfall up in the mountains. So I assume it's not quite that cold in Athens. Okay, so we mustn't get ahead of ourselves. We're going to talk more about the refuge um in a bit, but I'm going to pass over first of all Maria to get us started.

SPEAKER_03 2:07

Yeah, it's great to join the podcast. And definitely, I'm really excited to talk to you today. Could you tell us a little bit of how you came to be interested in the mountains and outdoors? And was this an important part of your childhood or did this interest develop later on as an adult?

SPEAKER_02 2:25

I can't say that my parents were the people who introduced me to the beauty of nature. And this is because they were hardworking people with very little free time. But one of uh our few outings, it was uh on the Mount of Olympus, and uh as we were driving up from uh Litoforo to Reonia, they stopped at one of the beds in the road, and I was fortunate enough to see a pair of figures flying through the Liberas Gorge. I think that image was the moment inside me. I said this is what I want to do. Something connected with uh the nature.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Yeah. That sounds like a very special moment, especially near Mount Olympus, which is such an iconic mountain in Greece and very historical. And then how did you develop your interest in mountains and how did you become sort of a a mountain man?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

I I don't know if I am a mountain man, but I have uh a lot of experience, of course, uh, because I have for more than 20 years uh living in the mountain of Barnica. I can say that uh when I was less than 20 years old, but uh with my friends, we went uh to some mountains close to Athens, about two, three hours, and uh we put tents somewhere and stay for one, two nights. Uh but without the the mentality of the outdoor guide and uh having uh trekking and hiking and things like that, just beyond the nature uh like a company and speaking and have fun there. So we were more happy to be there than in a bar. And uh this is was the continuing of the English of the gods in Enipeas. But uh the moment that it it was starting to be clearly in my mind was uh when uh I was uh I think after the army, I decided to go to a school which was to be a guide in national parks. It was like a college, it was a public uh uh school for two and a half years for exams. And for for this uh two and a half uh almost three years with the practice, I was sure that this is was my future job and uh this is that I would like to do, and it was clearly that uh for me that uh I would like to guide kids on the nature. In the same time, I asked to work uh like a guide in the trekking alas, and this was the next step this year now.

SPEAKER_00 5:02

Great yeah, we'll come back to trekking hellas in a minute, but maybe the next step is to talk a little bit about the refuge. Can you tell us a little bit about the story of the Baffi Refuge? When was it built? Why was it built? And how did you come to be involved in that?

SPEAKER_02 5:16

It was built in 1937 by the members of the Hellenic Alpin Club of Athens. The idea was to serve the needs of the club's members, so the people that uh ski in this uh period have a place to stay, eat, drink, sleep, and have the activity. I love to speak with uh old people. I like to have uh to have friends that is more than 78 years old. So all the people that are coming in the reference all these years, for me it was a place that we can speak and learn more about what happened in the past. So we find out that in 1940 to 1945, in the Second World War, this place was a strategic place for the Nazis. So they take this place from the Hellenic Alping Club and they keep it for ramies, but they allow the people of Alpine Club to come and stay in the fireplace, sleep there, and have their skin for one night. One night there and then so even in these bad years, the Hellenic Alping Club used to be there and use the service of this building. My involved was in 2004 when I announced that they will lease this building, and I remember there was great enthusiasm about this, and I decided uh not only to take part in the competition, but uh also to describe in my proposal that I would live permanently at the refuge and operate it the round. And I think this wasn't uh uh one of the reasons that they decided to give it to me. It was involved, of course, undertaking a loss. I remember then in college that I was very happy to move in the mountain span if I and manage this uh place. It was a difficult uh decision because I was twenty-six years old, but uh I was very happy, I was enthusiastic with this thing and uh I I remember that uh a lot of dreams about the future, how how we can bring people, how can give the to the family the opportunity to be there, to the schools, uh, camps, all these things that we can see that now it's real. And more than three thousand kids are coming for with uh school excursions uh every year. Uh we have two uh periods of camps for ten days, and we have thousands of people. They are coming with their families, with their kids, even if they are coming just for food. I think this is the beginning, it's a good thing, and it's it's something that is working for the future. So I I am very, very happy about this.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

So the refuge is really, really busy and really flourishing now, but I think you said before that the early days were different and not so many visitors to start with.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

It was in 2004 and nobody was on the mountain. If you say Mountain Barnica, all the people will say to you, ah, I know Mount Barnica, where is the casino? It was the only answer that they had. From 2004 until 2007, I invest a lot of time and money. I went to the bank, uh, asked for money, and uh tried to rebuild uh this place because it was they were uh the Altim Club, it was volunteers that they were going just for the weekends of the winter. So all the other time this building was closed. So we started rebuilding, and uh these three first uh years from 2004 to 2007, it was a mix of working for the building and try to say to the people that there is a place there that you can come, stay, eat, and have uh outdoor activities. Uh it was a difficult period and uh financial and uh it was hard work in these days, and few people, just for the Saturday and Sunday, visit the place and they have the services of the refuge. I think that when we just start to to say that okay, this is maybe it's uh financially starting to be sustainable and we can make it, we have the fire of the forest. It was 28th of June 2007. And all the people in Athens thought that all the mountain of Panta are lost, burnt. So we have uh more time to replenish and say that okay, yes, it was a big fire in the core of the national park, 50,000 uh hectares burned, and but there is northeast place of the mountain that is still alive and you have to continue coming on the mountain because without the people, I don't know how the mountain can all the infrastructures that uh it need to be a place that uh you can visit it. Otherwise it will be a wild place or the woods and for the years. Which maybe it's okay. But if we want to have both and the sustainability of the nature, and at the same time uh the population of the city learn about the nature, we have to find out the golden decision how this can be sustainable and uh I think like that.

SPEAKER_03 10:20

We've obviously had quite a few wildfires throughout Greece and more recently in 2003 on Partitha again. What general or overall impact have these fires had on the mountain? And what steps have been taken to prevent or control the spread of wildfires on the mountain? Because the destruction is quite vast.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

It's a difficult question. I'm not sure I can answer that. I think that uh we have the climate change, okay? You cannot make something all uh involving this uh but if you see on the past, you can see that in nineteen eighty, let's say, in Athens, it was again for two or three years, period without uh raining, without water, uh without snow, was uh too hard to stay in Athens because uh many many people died, I think uh with uh this period in uh in Greece. So maybe it's a circle, but it's going up and down. Maybe we have to stay calm and avoid this the summertime to get out uh to forests because it's windy, it's warm, it's heat. I don't think that we can change it. We all we can involve. You can see even in California, uh where is the the government of the US have many, many infrastructures, many planes and fire and all these things, and they cannot make it. At the end, the fire it will finish when it will finish, when the wind will stop, when it will go with the coast of the sea, or just change the wind and stop the the fire. I don't think that if we will uh grow our uh expenses with more helicopters, more planes, more uh people that will be on the fire, we will stop the fire. Okay, I can understand and I agree that if we be proactive, if we have uh more drones to check the fire, so you can stop it in the beginning, it will help. But for soon the fire starts and if you have four, five, six dry uh weather with uh forty degrees and uh no snow in the winter, no water in the spring, it's very very difficult to stop a fire. I I was a fireman for uh I think one summer. Uh I went in a lot of fires, twenty-six fires in one period, in uh which was in two thousand two, and uh I I know from my experience that it it's very difficult to stop the fires in the forest.

unknown 12:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

One thing that we can do is to give our knowledge, to bring the kids in the nature, and the kids will learn about how important is this forest for us and specifically for the capital of Athens. So if the kids learn about uh the need of this place, so as they were growing, they will understand that they have to protect it. So they will avoid make fires for fun or just make their meat, to avoid to drop their garbage, to avoid to make noise in the uh forest, to avoid to come with their cars all the time in the forest. So they will learn to protect it and respect the nature. This would be very helpful for the future. And it's something that we can do beside education, and of course, many people have to cooperate on this thing. First of all, the government and Ministry of Education.

SPEAKER_00 13:41

Yeah, yeah, that's an area where we actually can make a difference, which is good to know. I mean, it's it clearly parts of Parnata have been damaged by the fire. So I was doing some I was I've been hiking within West Parnha recently out to the Cape of Pan and elsewhere. A lot of paths are very badly burnt and trees down over the paths, it makes it harder to hike. But it still does quite that damage, but Harnetha is an incredibly beautiful place. And I and maybe quite a lot for those who haven't been there before, but the rockage itself is just an amazing place to live, isn't it? It's you you kind of you go up through the suburbs, the north of Athens, up past the casino as you go up the switchback, it feels as though the city is very close as you're driving up. But then you turn around the corner and within just a kilometer or two, it feels as though you're entering a completely different world. There's an amazing sense of delta there. So yeah, I just wondered if you might be able to tell us a bit about what what you love about Mount Mount Parnatha. And are there any special places on Parnatha that you love going back to?

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Love everything, Parnatha. Uh any any place, any time and uh any period is I I don't say that uh when it's snowing it's better or when it's sunny. But uh I think that every really every moment it's beautiful and you can enjoy and have fun and be happy because we are there. Of course there are some there are some routes, there are some uh parts that it's close to the epidage and we used to walk there. Like uh I really enjoy hiking towards Kipiza. It's a beautiful path. You can go to the the other side of the mountain and you can see a view from east to west and north. You avoid just the athletes for the reason more that I like this place. One favorite route uh of mine is the secret of Mount Fan. That's about two and a half, three hours, it depends how you are working. I would mention something special that is a visit to the cave of uh Pan. Something different will be cycling around the mountain. It's uh 16 kilometers, make the circle from the road, and because it's closed for the cars, you are free to run and cover all this uh beautiful uh circle with your bike. If uh you have a stronger hiking group or friends, uh you can uh make a traverse from south to north and start from uh Tracomacedonus or even from the refuge and go to Avlona. Uh this is five hours maybe, and uh you can take the train and go to Athens directly. So it's a beautiful thing to see from the fir trees, you go to the other side to the pine trees and to and see all this different uh view of the mountain. Climbing and pine climbs all around its rocks from west to east. You can go east to Valibobi, where is the first uh climbing area in Athens and in Greece actually. All the people that start to be Monterey guides uh we start climbing in in the place of uh Vali Bobi, we call it Petra Brachos Yagu, Petra Yagu, it's stone of Yagu because Yagos was one of the first climbing plans in Athens. From the other side, from west, there's a huge area that you can climb for years maybe. Huge area for many, many climbing uh but uh in any case if you have uh the time and uh the luck to have uh friends and uh company around you because it's not nice to to to walk and taking and hiking alone and for safety reasons. Uh Panipath has more than 250 kilometers of uh recorded trail network. There are more, it's much more, as well as many more paths that have been lost over time. So as long as we have the desire to go, there's no sorts of options.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

It's uh fantastic, lots of lots of great recommendations there. And it I mean it's a big, big mountain, is it? You could spend half a lifetime or a whole lifetime exploring it.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

I'm there to to end two years now, and I think that I have a lot of explore.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's great to know.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

One of the really exciting initiatives you have been working on recently has been the first ever mountain trail for people with disabilities in Greece. Could you tell us a bit about your experience working on that project and describe it in a bit more detail of what the trail will be like?

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Indeed, the trail of people with disabilities is the most beautiful project that I have uh been involved uh recent years. It's a project that excited. I started that uh as long as I will say that uh if I am uh okay with my health, whatever difficulty you may need to face, we will do it. The project will be completed. It was difficult. Starting 2020 in the COVID period, I created a team which called Access to Nature, and uh we started with at least five, six, uh six people there. I work a lot in many many meetings to find out good practices that happen uh in other countries for this thing. So after five years, in 2025, uh we start in 2021, 20. 21 we we finished a study and we sent it to the Ministry of Environment. And in 2025, I think it was uh July to August, something like that, we take the last permission. It was a lot of things that you have to do with uh all this uh you know the forest uh so we start on uh October, end of October, I think, we start uh the constructions. And more details is that is uh is a path we say M1, that is path one, which is 107 meters, and the path two, which is make a circle inside the forest, where is the parking of uh the refuge inside the forest is 135 meters. The first path which you can go there and uh start uh use it with some small details in finished, and the other path is uh middle, let's say, but because of the weather, of the snow and all of this situation, I think maybe at May, because after February we will start again the to work there. But I think we will have completed and delivered uh for use the first forest rail for people with disabilities.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

That's fantastic, congratulations.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

Absolutely, I'm I'm very excited about this.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

Yeah, that's really inspiring to hear.

New Region

SPEAKER_02 20:23

The idea is not only to send the visitors with mobility difficulties who eventually come to the refuge, but also for this project is to become a model for creating similar trails in other regions of Greece. Because it will be the first one who have late 2026. So we will have free for our uh knowledge about this, uh the study and all these permissions that you need to create a path like this, and we will give it for free in anyone that uh would like to create something in K. This is our idea, this is our vision about this uh work that we have done until now. We have come on.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Thanks, that's really inspiring to hear, and actually that's a good cue to move now beyond Mount Parnetha and look a bit more broadly at the other work you do with Trekking Hellas. Could you tell us just a little bit more about what you do, what Trekking Hellas does, and what that involves for you day to day?

SPEAKER_02 21:21

Trekking Last was founded in 1986, as we say, in the beginning. It's extremely important for us because we are celebrating 40 years since the company establishment. It will be a year of uh offering our services in Greece with our races. Trekkinas established in 1986, but in 1997 create a model that it's a transise system. It is a model company, uh as it has created a network of twenty four companies at present, which is a transient system. But it's something that uh you cannot find it in uh globally. Uh I try to find something because I would like to see good practice. I I know that you cannot create everything, but uh I s uh still I cannot find in the world something that it will be like this. I mean, you find in in our sector of how the uh recreational activities, you cannot find the transcising system. In any case it's it's something that is growing. When I start uh to be president and CEO in the company and uh see about uh what we are doing with the francis system, it was seven or eight companies. And now we are twenty four, and twenty-six we we are ready to sign uh uh the contract with new francising uh the island of Kerkyra, so we'll be twenty-five, and uh we have uh discussions, but it's I think maybe in twenty-six, otherwise in twenty-seven, we'll have another company in uh Laconia, in Peloponnes. That's a beautiful place, and uh I think that we will have a very, very nice activities there too. Now for me, I started in uh the company before 25 years ago as an assistant, as I say. I w I was in the operation department, so I was in the office, but in the same time, all the time I was outside with the activities, being like an assistant and the uh to the guides, transfer the the boats and the bikes and uh all this equipment that you need to the with the activities. It was a progress that uh uh I really uh I I'm still cannot board with this procedure. Uh all the time I have to change department and uh I think uh it happened quickly, even if you say twenty-five years it's a lot of period. I think that to to start from an assistant without money and to be a president and CEO of this company, that it's not shoot, it's not a big small company actually. But um it's something it's a difficult model, it's a lot of work beside this we can see. So I think that uh it's it's very good, it happens very well and and soon. In the same time and in not in all this period, I've been uh owner of uh first in the uh Parnica. So in 2004 I went there to the leftist, and 2005, one year later, we created the first base in Mountain Parnica. And uh in 2011 we have another base in Sandorini. That this basis, I am the owner of this base, so I have the responsibility of them. But it's uh different to say I have to manage the francise system, 24 bases, you can understand more about the needs of the people if you have company. I am the field uh my involvement in the field of activities is for uh recreational reasons. That is, uh I will take part in activities, but with my family, with friends, we can go together and have fun. That is uh there is a large team of guides and uh executives who are involved in uh sales and uh operation of our services. My whole involvement is mainly focused on the management of the central offices on the francises. This is my day-to-day job, etc.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Well, it sounds like you stay very busy, but you still make time to spend time outdoors and have fun. What is some of the ways that you encourage people to spend time outdoors? And what can people do in their own lives or with the people in their lives to make that happen? And and are there things that we can do at at the school level to encourage children to spend time outdoors outside of school activities?

SPEAKER_02 25:43

Thank you for this question. Uh the next major project, the outdoor culture, as uh we can uh say all these things it should be. So it's something that we have started working on uh many, many years as a company. That it means that we cannot make uh big changes our country, but we prepare, give a proposal to the Ministry of Education and uh and start now after twenty-twenty-five years, as we have a small discussion with Jason yesterday, we need a generation to change this thing. So it is a change that needs to be made with involvement of the state. I am sure that we need 20 to 25 years, some generation, because uh we need to educate this generation from the age of five so that the children of this children develop an outdoor culture and give it to the their children that it will become. Uh, we can all maybe remember in France it was uh you know him that uh his name is Maurice Hejok. He was the first man that uh making an expedition in uh Alaya, in Napuna, uh went uh over 2,000 uh meters. That happened in 1950. And uh in 1951 writing this uh Alpin Club, uh Alpin uh Mountaineering book that is uh the bestseller of the expeditions and the mountains. And I think all the people that have uh a future in the mountains that have read this book. But this month was something more for me is something uh I didn't know it's a a mentor in my mind of what I would like to involve and uh put a small piece out of your culture in this. He was a a minister of influence in this period, it was not called education ministry, but uh a minister of young and uh sports, something like that. And he created uh a government company which is called UsePea, and uh this uh huge organization offered it was something like taking a last, but it was last, offered services, outdoor activities in thousands of kids. I think more than one million gender went out for skiing, roughing, mountain biking, and all these beautiful things that we have to do. This happened in 1955 to 1965, 1970, something like that, 50 to 20 years. For this, I'm sure that we need 20 years or sure. Because he was in this position, this visible man, and create uh by law, kids went down and have outdoor activities twice per year. And you can see now the first people that they are traveling, they are still backpackers, they spend more money for their activities than for the luxury hotels, and they have this mentality that I would be very, very happy to start growing them in Greece. I don't know if we will make it, and we have already sent some proposals to the Ministry of Education, but uh we need more time, I don't know, we need a different way to to give them this vision for our country. We, as a company now, through school trips, family programs and outcomes, we will try to pass uh with children's knowledge, with uh become become we need to protect the nature in the natural environment. And this happened through our activities. I can guarantee that in our camps, because we have more days, we have two weeks, ten days at least, we have the time and uh we give more and uh maybe some of these kids are the future they will remember this thing and they will give it to their kids. But it needs something to be because I'm I would like that to be for all the children and not only for the children that their parents have money and they send them to the private schools because this is the cabin. Our clients is for all the private schools in Athens. We have all the private schools in Athens. Clients they send their kids to our campus, they send the school excursions in our uh bases, but few public schools are coming because they families they cannot pay and they cannot come. Okay, we give some free excursions to some schools that we know that they are in a difficult financial position, their families. We give free for the families that will have uh more than four kids, but this is just one company for some schools, it's not for all the schools and all and not for all the areas. Now, what is in my opinion is that uh to analyze that is getting to know nature through our uh recreational activities is a pleasant way to pass through play our love for the mountains and more generally for Greece's wonderful natural environment. It's it's so simple. You have to get out, have fun, be on the nature, open your mind, and then to give the knowledge to the kids. For me, there is no other path. It's very boring to be in a classroom, have your teacher. I can remember myself, I was born a lot when I was in the classroom. It's more easy, it's more beautiful to learn when you are outside. My kid is now ten years old, he's going to learn. He doesn't like the way that they try to learn him. He cannot uh even read in the house. Uh, when we we are on the mountain of paradise and we are getting out, and we have I said to him, okay, let's have some fun, let's go out and try, go up to the trees, come down. So after one hour he's okay, he's free, he's uh you know the kids have a lot of uh get out of their their self. And and then we can read. We can stay down and uh read about uh history. It's more easy for to understand it. It's more easy to make it with a practical way. Let's say for his maths, I try a lot to explain him uh about uh how he can make this classroom, and it was very, very easy when we get out to take a measure and start making uh science on the field and speak about how you can add the numbers, a methodical work, a strategy, and synergies between the public and the private sector to to see this real life. More specifically, we need a clear legal framework that will uh describe who can provide outdoor recreational activities and how. We don't have this. I try a lot with uh our federation, uh, more than years now. Uh it's it's I don't know why it's not hard to create a law that clearly say which companies can offer this, how they will uh train themselves, the guides. So we need the training and the certification of all these professionals that are involved in this sector. We need synergies, as I said before, synergies among the public sector, the private sector, and the associations, all these clubs and all these people that uh they're volunteers, or I don't know, but they are involved with the nature and the activities. And at the end, uh education to the Ministry of Education from the school to get out, make activities like more scheduled plan, as we say before. You have to make a plan and start to work around a huge thing at a pursuit, not just taking a mask and not just that the ministry can do it alone. You need more people inside this public companies that they will pay for it. Yeah. They will pay for the public schools to get out. As was in the asking athletic.

SPEAKER_00 33:20

Fantastic. Thanks. But you're right, that last point is really important. Also, and we'll go for a long way to go to the point of point before we put one for one. We talked about the one other fun to help with the problem talking about multiple one way to you. What in other words, what are the priorities for and outdoor? Environmentally sustainable, engaging with local communities, what can you what can you do to make a difference?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

I can speak globally because uh one company who can do what we can do, but it it's it's a small thing, it's it's not a big thing. Okay, we can s show the road, but we cannot change the world. Again, we have to create classes. It's the only path. Synergies among uh local business, uh hotels, restaurants, transport providers, travel agencies together with local authorities, municipalities, communities, uh as well as the regions and uh NGOs of these three different things can uh combine and can create a large scene whose uh focus is not uh only the sustainability of the natural environment, because uh sustainability is not only for the environment, but sustainability for the pulscope. Uh it's uh sustainability policy that uh can ensure the locals remain in their places, provide them with some incomes to to continue working and to develop an economical uh intellectual in their villages or their uh or maybe in their islands. You have to create something for the people that are that they are staying in their villages and the small islands to stay there, or maybe the people that they have leave their villages and be in the s in the big cities to have something to go back. It's very difficult to create that. Of course, it's infrastructure, uh it's a big need. Roads, sports, airports, hospitals, uh, trails, we need trains. But above all, this again education is needed so that people can ensure quality and safety at all levels of uh tourist products and uh be back to the village and start working there. We have many ministries to combine and take decisions with the Ministry of Environment, the Ministry of Tourist, for the people that they are on the fields and uh with uh animals, all these to work together and have a scope, a common scope and uh create involving the entire process. And last but always not least, is small cooperatives that uh represent its region. For me, this is very, very important. Small, small cooperations that make the will make a difference, they will make a an identity in its place, to create a central local interest, and make it attract others from the cities so they will return to back to the roots, like it was in the past. And it is a solution in this global thing that we see around us because all this worldwide thing that changed uh day by day, and you can see now what is happening in the world. We can avoid that. And uh we cannot uh suffer from some uh huge international companies that uh the governments have to to give everything and water and blood as they say in the past, just to have energy. If you if we create small communities, maybe we will not delete all these uh deals or countries or for the big it's a political thing, it's not uh just for uh for the mountains and for the companies that uh sell outdoor activities. It's huge, but uh if we if uh we will try and if we may to create big classes of these small communities, uh at the end, in my opinion, uh we will make to bring first the women, this is the first thing, and then uh the men will follow and uh who can talk about his centralization, if it's the right word, of uh the people that they can leave and still going to l leave the villages and go to the big cities where less than ten million in this and maybe six million in the capital of uh huge large cities that they cannot offer nothing. I I was in the river of uh Kirkishos now one hour and fifty minutes. It's a distance of ten minutes. It's it's something that uh sometimes we have to start from the bottom and we can connect together and slowly, slowly, more and more people come in this idea, and at the end maybe we can uh change the things. It's the only way. Otherwise we have to stay and speak and speak and be suffering for what the politicians are not making for us. But we are political uh people too. We have to to speak and uh and change the things at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

Thanks, Stefanoff. That's a really powerful vision, I think, building networks, but always in a way that is grounded in local communities and building from the bottom up. We've got more people and multiple multiple functions, we've got the protocol tools to formal protocols and all the particles, we can follow up on the mountain closed protocol, we want to talk about the protocol for the broad amount of storage multiple future protocols stories for the protocol, you can follow the multiple multiple.